Credentials Community Group Telecon

Minutes for 2015-05-12

Agenda
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2015May/0008.html
Topics
  1. Recap of 2015 Groningen Declaration Meeting
  2. OBI JSON-LD Context
  3. RDF Graph Normalization
  4. Credentials WG Charter on Web Payments Agenda
  5. Credentials WG support questionnaire
  6. Recruiting co-chair from Pearson
Organizer
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Dave Longley
Present
Dave Longley, Eric Korb, Manu Sporny, Sunny Lee, Nate Otto, Gregg Kellogg, Richard Varn, Laura Fowler, David I. Lehn
Audio Log
Dave Longley is scribing.
Eric Korb: I don't know if we'll get into this today, but I have been trying to test the version 1.1 of openbadges and have hit a few snags.
Manu Sporny: We'll put that on the agenda.

Topic: Recap of 2015 Groningen Declaration Meeting

Manu Sporny: Eric, Sunny, can you give us a rundown?
Sunny Lee: This was my first time going to the summit, I found out about this in October, at this point I think I brought it to the attentino of this group, we got Victoriano Giralt to join this CG.
Eric Korb: So it was also my first time attending, it's only the second-third year of the summit, it's invitation only. I found the breadth of initiatives going on around the world creating interop between systems... I think from 50000 ft up viewpoint, the bigger issue for international people and the US is that concern is around governance of the data not the technology. The tech is being developed in Finland, and in the Arab states and Australia. All of them working on interop between systems, primarily being done in deep pipes of database, machine to machine private pipes. I didn't see anything that was going to be similar to what we were doing from the perspective of a standard where disparate systems could communicate in a network without needing to know about each other via direct pipe.
Eric Korb: I think the work they are doing is creating interop between systems and moving data from place to place is important especially with governance concerning privacy, release, and control of the data. During my presentatino, I made the point, on behalf of the CG, that this is great work you're doing and at some point you're going to want to communicate with systems that you don't know about and dont' have DB access and we're working on something ubiquitous for credential issuance/comsumption. Lots of players there, parchment, etc. Invited players to join our initiative here. 3-4 will be looking at what we're doing soon. I know that Richard just said he was speaking with Parchment, their CEO sat in all the presentations I did and they are very interested in the work.
Eric Korb: It was a fantastic exchange, lots of opportunity for networking and hearing what's going on. All the presentations were video taped and will be made public, I'll post that when it goes live.
Manu Sporny: Sunny, anything to add?
Sunny Lee: Largely I agree with Eric, it was mostly formal education institutions talking, developing techs around transcripts, talking about interop with them and how they migrate and are portable. The digital credential conversation is really new to them and Eric and I were the new folks who were envisioning how this would all work in the future. I think a lot of these folks were interested in policy, were in a policy track, not technology. The majority of the group were policy oriented.
Sunny Lee: Not as many technical minds, would be my opinion.
Manu Sporny: So it was worth it to go there and tell them what we're doing, do we expect any of them to join in the work and would it be worth going back next year to give them an update, etc?
Sunny Lee: Victoriano, the president, is fully aware of this effort and is very much a part of this CG and patched into the work we're doing. They are definitely interested in this, and our work is going to make a lot of progress in a year and it would be worthwhile to see how our efforts come together in a year. Because we have members of that group in our CG they'll get progress updates throughout the year.
Eric Korb: We should definitely have a presence there as long as that organization in place. The volume and/or potential of volume of credentials to pass around is incredible. China was there presenting their solution with 20 million registered students in their network. So mind boggling network, millions in the Arab nations as well. Student records and ways of validating the student has actually achieved what they say they have. Not much different from what Parchment, etc. want. I had a chance to show the demo that we have up on opencreds. We gave one to various delegations Finnish, Italian, etc.
Eric Korb: This Included a demonstration to Simone Ravioli from Italy [scribe assist by Nate Otto]
Manu Sporny: I met with Victoriano a while back and he's very much a strong player in this place and he's hooked into the IT network of the universities.
Manu Sporny: Like Sunny said he's involved in this group and believes in what we're doing.
Nate Otto: Correction, I know how to spell Eric's name. It's erok
Eric Korb: Next year will be in South Africa and Australia will likely follow right after that.
Sunny Lee: They are getting a lot of momentum agreeing and making commitments like Linked Data portability, interop, etc.
Sunny Lee: Next up is making that actionable.
Sunny Lee: We had more people agreeing with that plan vs. coming to the table with a plan to go forward.
Sunny Lee: We can potentially play a big role in helping them think through those implementation details.
Manu Sporny: I think that's fantastic news.
Eric Korb: The student clearing house has taken a stronger look at what's going on with this group based on what we presented, etc. I think they sit on the board at Groningen as well as Parchment, I'd like to go after them to recruit them harder for sure.
Sunny Lee: I know [?] in Parchment and they are engaged in what's going on and I think it won't be hard working with them going forward. I do think they are philosophically on board we just need to more actively engage them.
Sunny Lee: Matt Pittinsky, CEO of Parchment
Manu Sporny: Next actionable thing for this group is to ask them to come join W3C work, ask them to support the WG formation and then ask them to join.
Sunny Lee: Rick Torres, CEO of National Student Clearinghouse
Manu Sporny: Anything else on Groningen Declaration?
Sunny Lee: All good on my side
Manu Sporny: Thanks a bunch Eric and Sunny for representing us there.
Manu Sporny: It will make the next couple of months easier on us by talking to them.
Eric Korb: The one thing is the Artemis, they use a federated id solution, shibboleth.
Eric Korb: There are some presentation videos we should be looking at, one was a proposal that was strange the way they went about who owns the data and who has to grant release to consume the data. I was thinking about how to use credentials to offer that authority., etc. and the other looked good.
Eric Korb: A possible extension of our specification to talk about privacy, talking about privacy enforcement. FERPA is about to get a big overhaul; Sunny you may want to look into this with IMSGlobal, the ? label and we might want to think about how we get that into credentials and how it may be enforced.
Manu Sporny: The web payments group is also looking at what rights you get when you use a credential. They want a privacy policy and use statements in a machine readable format in a credential that you transmit.
Manu Sporny: And to build a library using JSON-LD as a data framework for that thing.
Dave Longley: Yeah, this is similar to what we've been talking about with Tim Holborn - he wanted machine-readable statements on what a credential should be used for. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: How much of that goes into the standard? What document does it go in. This is a scope discussion. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Eric Korb: Similar to when you install an app with the permissions you grant it.
Dave Longley: Yes.

Topic: OBI JSON-LD Context

Dave Longley: Yes, that's how we were thinking about itw hen we had discussions on it earlier in the year.
Manu Sporny: The OBI JSON-LD context, I think we hit a snag with it. We discovered that when there's a cache miss -- on Amazon cloudfront, the proper CORS headers are not set and that results in an browser-based verification to fail.
Manu Sporny: Have you seen this problem before/are you aware of it?
Dave Longley: If you remember, this is what we were seeing when you were first setting it up. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Nate Otto: I'll test it out and get back to you.
Eric Korb: I've handcrafted some assertions to test the new stuff, but it's coming back as 1.0 not 1.1.
Eric Korb: When validating.
Nate Otto: Currently the online validator isn't checking 1.1 just 1.0, we're working with mozilla to get that updated. They are busy so I might end up writing the code myself.
Nate Otto: I'll have an update for you by next week's call.
Eric Korb: I wanted to publish an example badge so people could see the layout, etc and see how it runs.
Nate Otto: Sounds great, I appreciate that. At Concentric Sky we're building a new validator that validates through 1.1.
Eric Korb: Will it be open source?
Nate Otto: Yes.
Manu Sporny: Very cool.
Manu Sporny: Should the community host that somewhere?
Nate Otto: We're going to host it (Concentric Sky) but we'll talk about other possibilities. If you've got resources to host it that would be a fine place to put it as well.
Manu Sporny: Sounds good.
Manu Sporny: Was that the concern you had?
Eric Korb: Yes, and what you covered.
Manu Sporny: I was using curl to access the JSON-LD context but I was getting an SSL error because my machine was out of date by around 4 months ... just a heads up. The cert being used by the openbadges server is quite new.
Manu Sporny: Just mentioning that if other people hit the issue.
Eric Korb: I have one question, in reading the docs posted under 1.1, a question to the group: Is it standard to request that as an HTTPS or it doesn't matter?
Eric Korb: Should the annotations show HTTPS or doesn't it matter?
Nate Otto: Erok210: a question in regard to docs posted with badges 1.1 spec: https://openbadgespec.org/ , should examples show https
Manu Sporny: I think we talked about this on the call last week and Nate will update it to use HTTPS.
Manu Sporny: We should be telling people to just use HTTPS these days.
Eric Korb: I'm referring to the history 1.1 HTML file and it shows some examples.
Nate Otto: I'll make sure to update those.
Eric Korb: I find that IE shows a mixed error if you have some HTTPS and some HTTP, etc.
Nate Otto: We've encountered some problems with android as well. It won't follow redirects that bounce between secure and insecure.
Manu Sporny: Yeah, that enables MITM, so it needs to be HTTPS throughout.
Nate Otto: Thanks for reporting this, all.

Topic: RDF Graph Normalization

Manu Sporny: Gregg, you went to the Linked Data Platform F2F meeting in SF, a few weeks ago. You asked if the RDF Dataset Normalization could be pulled in, the response was that they are too busy with other things. So we need to find a different home for the spec, is that accurate?
Gregg Kellogg: The purpose of that meeting was really to go through the follow-through items of the existing set and look at important issues that need to be addressed by the next group. And there was a *long* list. There are important issues right in the middle of LDP needs to do and they didn't make the cut. I made the argument that the spec was really a done deal that needed a home, so it doesn't look like that will be a home for it.
Manu Sporny: I'll take an action to talk to Phil Archer about it to get a home for it.
Manu Sporny: We'll lean on them to get them to create a home for it.
Manu Sporny: At the beginning of the call Dave Longley said maybe we could put it in the Credentials charter so it has a home and we could just create a task force for it.
Gregg Kellogg: It's in the charter already I think.
Manu Sporny: It has a star next to it to indicate we could give it a new home, now it's unclear where that would be. People may complain if we put it into a Credentials WG. Perhaps a microgroup could spin up to handle it instead.
Manu Sporny: So it could start being referenced in other specs, etc.
Manu Sporny: I'll talk with Phil about it.
Gregg Kellogg: Just a pointer back to the top of the minutes ... I had received comments on the existing state of the document.
Manu Sporny: I'll move that here.
Gregg Kellogg: It was an exchange with James Anderson. Was a private email but nothing sensitive in it. I pointed him at this group but I don't think it's likely he'll join. I would suggest that it go out to relevant groups, even if it's the old comments in the say the RDF WG. We should try to get a broad review, solicit input, etc.
Manu Sporny: Which organization is he with?
Gregg Kellogg: He's at datagraph, the dydra sparql engine.
Gregg Kellogg: He's deeply steeped in all of this stuff.
Gregg Kellogg: Other input from him: given the position that canonical graphs may well come to play in information management, it would be imperative to include a well defined abstract model with a closed family of operations, describe the canonical state in terms of the model and canonicalization in terms of the operations.
Gregg Kellogg: He also said: this is not the same as the language in the json-ld documents. even when then describe their intent as to express things in terms of an abstract syntax, in the end it, the description is in terms of a concrete syntax.
Manu Sporny: Would be great to get him involved with this.
Gregg Kellogg: I'll suggest he chime in.
Manu Sporny: Anything else?
Gregg Kellogg: I and one of my other Ruby RDF compatriots are planning to do an implementation shortly.
Manu Sporny: That will make everyone's lives much easier.
Manu Sporny: It would be great to have two interoperable implementations. For those unfamiliar with W3C process, you need two interop implementations and if we have that going in it will help us spin up a group.

Topic: Credentials WG Charter on Web Payments Agenda

Manu Sporny: The proposed Credentials WG Charter is on the Web Payments Agenda.
Manu Sporny: Richard and Eric ... pay attention to the 16th of June, specifically the afternoon. Where it says "Credentials, what do we need for Payments?"
Manu Sporny: There are a couple of things I'd like out of this meeting, one, I just discovered they are already at capacity, now we need a special invite from the chairs to get Richard and Eric into the room. I think we can do it but it must be done ASAP. The second thing is that I'd like to present with you or you guys present ... to show how credentials impact more than just payments. I think we're going to try and convince the web payments IG to create a Credentials WG and at the same time this CG will come out with a list of organizations that would support it that are outside the web payments IG. I'd like you guys to attend at least two days so you guys can understand what will be required of the chairs.
Manu Sporny: I think it will be a good experience to just observe what's going on and prime you for when you need to do the same thing. Three or four months after the NYC meeting.
Richard Varn: I blocked two days off for this.
Manu Sporny: Ok, I need to put you in touch with the chairs and get it worked out. It's really up to you, if you think you chair these things you don't have to stick around for 2 days.
Richard Varn: I need to know when we'll be talking about our topic in particular.
Manu Sporny: It would start at 2:30pm and go to 4:30pm.
Richard Varn: I'll stick around and decide if I need to stay for a second day.
Eric Korb: Blocking out the 16th and 17th?
Manu Sporny: 16Th is a must.
Manu Sporny: The conference goes 16-18.
Manu Sporny: W3C Web Payments F2F.
Manu Sporny: The 16th is when they will discuss the credentials topic.
Manu Sporny: You won't be able to use the registration form because you're not IG members.
Bloomberg at 731 Lexington Ave.
Manu Sporny: Will be around 40 people in the room for both days, last day will be 60-80 people round table.

Topic: Credentials WG support questionnaire

Manu Sporny: So, summary for W3C members - http://tinyurl.com/w3c-credentials-summary
Manu Sporny: I put together the questionnaire for the support form. We're going to, shortly, start contacting a number of companies on our recruiting list. Sending them two links, one a summary of the work, and depending on who we're contacting, we'll need to refine the summary. This one is for W3C members.
Manu Sporny: Formatted how W3C contacts usually receive messages. At the end we'll be asking them to say whether or not they support the creation of a credentials WG.
Manu Sporny: Support creation of credentials WG form: http://tinyurl.com/w3c-credentials-support
Manu Sporny: W3C is breathing down our neck to get this info to them sooner rather than later. Need to move on this in the next 2 weeks.
Manu Sporny: Take any discussion on that to the mailing list.

Topic: Recruiting co-chair from Pearson

Manu Sporny: I have sent an email out to Peter J, asking them if they'll co-chair. Other potential co-chairs could come from orgs like blackboard. We need to see if Pearson is interested, if not, we may move onto another org. Maybe even Microsoft or the Gates Foundation. They might be interested.
Nate Otto: If framed in terms of Competency Based Education use cases, that may be attractive to Gates.
Eric Korb: It's looking like the 18th is when we should be there?
Eric Korb: Ok, I'm sorry. I see.
Manu Sporny: That's old information, I'll strike that on the page.
Eric Korb: I thought that was a lot of topics to cover :).
Manu Sporny: Thanks everyone for the call
Manu Sporny: Please focus on a recruiting document for non-W3C members and go into the docs and fill them out and add comments, we need to get them into shape.